Pier and Surf Forum banner
1 - 20 of 65 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It’s good to see casters discussing some sort of body training and conditioning. In the past this was a well kept secret or so it seemed.
Here are my thoughts on the subject.

There is no substitute for SPEED and POWER.
Good technique will get you up around 725’ – 750’, but you would need to add SPEED and POWER to get up around the 800’ - 850' mark.

The GOOD news is that; the human body was made to regenerate itself, therefore, You can get stronger and faster at any age.
You can start by strengthening YOUR CORE, while working on your balance and conditioning, then add weights to your training routine. A strong CORE will provide the base for good form and technique when you start liftng heavy weights.

What are your thoughts on training for casting?


GOD BLESS!!
Earl-DC
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,822 Posts
Earl, I would say having a strong core will give you the advantage in most if not all physical activites. I guess my issue would be if you had two men same age same strength what would set them about would be there form.. So you can work on your core, but all of our bodies have limitations, and I'm starting to think if you put the time in becoming more fluid in motion and making every movement as efficient as possible you can truly reep the reward from getting stronger.

Being 5'8 and 220 (stocky build) I think i have enough strength to become a good caster, but the fluidness will get me the big numbers... I HOPE!!! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
There is a big difference between being stocky and being powerful, Tommy is powerful, you can see it in his casting. It is the timing of that power that makes him and many others exceptional casters. Once you become fluid to the point where you can hit the cast with all your power then you start seeing bigger numbers through training at least in my experience.

I don't toss less then 8's ever and most times have 10's-12's or 8 and a mock bait. As I said in the other thread this is where power and form meet.

You need to train total body for casting. The staples will serve you well if you do them with free weights. Squats, Deadlifts, Pullups, Overhead pressing, and bench if you want to look pretty will develop the necessary power you would need. Make no mistake, you only need these 5 because they are some of the hardest movements and create the most stress on the human body. From that stress you recover and gain strength. It is not uncommon for an untrained person to put 100lbs on their squat in the first 6 weeks of training. Imagine what 100lbs of power in your legs could do for your base and your cast. As for the core discussion it is overrated, improving significantly in the above lifts will increas your core strength more then a million situps and twists ever could.

There is a point of diminishing returns. About a year ago I was benching over 400, squatting close to 500 and deadlifting 550 or so. The holy grail for guys my size using no powerlifting equipment like belts and shirts etc is to be in the 400, 500, 600 club and I couldn't quite make it. I'm significantly lower (10% less) in those numbers this year due to some time off but my casting isn't noticeably different.

I think most of you would have an awakening if you spent a day in the gym with some of the top casters. Developing fast twitch muscles will give you explosive power and that's what most of those guys have. It may look controlled and smooth but I bet a electro analysis would paint a differnt pic of what their bodies are doing.

Violence starts in your toes...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,512 Posts
Charkbait, I think you put way too much importance on your power. If you get a smooth, clean cast you don't need to be a superman. You just need to understand the physics of the cast, perform it cleanly and you will get distance. We are only talking about a few oz of weight here. I do agree a quick twitch at just the right moment will make a big difference but if you need to squat 500lbs to make it happen it's your form that needs improvement
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,822 Posts
I also agree with Tracker16. I think you can become a good caster with one and not the other, but to become a great caster you need a blend of both.. Tommy is the Man, and I understand why people use him as an example. However there are guys half his size putting up numbers close to his. So it's not all about power, and that's a fact. I remember having a conversion with TF in Berryville last year and asked him about have power vs form. He said the smaller guys have to have better than good form to get the numbers the stronger guys get. My understanding of that was get in where you fit in. I hope we have a DC event this year.. If so I would ask that all come out and watch.. You will see all types (power, and form) and it's actually pretty humbling
(in a good way).. Foot placement, rotation, timing, push&pull is all a part of form.. I also believe if you practice your form you will build up your core without powerlifting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,822 Posts
I also think a Distance Caster and a Surf Angler are like Apples and Oranges.. In my opinion it's easier to load a rod with 8nbait than a 125g sinker.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,512 Posts
8 oz and bait is more than twice the weight of 125gr. If you match that to a 12 ft rod and can't make it really zing maybe some good instruction is in order. I hope there is a casting contest around my area soon so I can get some tips on improving my cast as I don't use more than 4 oz on my 10 footer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
whoa whoa whoa, never said you needed to be a hulk and actually said you don't need to squat 500, at a certain point for casting you'll get nothing out of it.

I'll however say that you would be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't benefit from the strength routine above. Not in lieu of casting practice but in addition to.

If you think it doesn't matter its a cop out as well. I'll bet you'd find those slight build folks are actually very powerful.

It's all relative as well, yes you can "built up" your core without powerlifting or training but you'd make much quicker progress and generate more speed and power through training. If you do it casting you'll actually create many compensation issues in your body due the single direction nature of what you are doing.

Agreed on the difference in distance casters and surf heavermen...never caught a fish on grass so don't care much to toss 5oz. Also as you said, easier to load a rod with an 8 but much harder to generate the speed necessary to deliver the increased payload without a sound base and sufficient power.
 

·
DISTANCE CASTING SPONSOR
Joined
·
3,349 Posts
This a very interesting thread to me.

Having good power is an advantage in distance casting. The reason Danny Moskops is the best caster on the planet is a combination of strength, freakish speed for a guy his size and most important of all is the dedication to develop a casting style that works for his body type.

I was blessed with natural strength and pretty decent speed. Those attributes allow me to hit the rod pretty hard but I found out early on that without technique refinement I was pretty much stuck as a sub 600’ caster. It took years of technique refinement and work but I clawed my way to the National Title in 04 at the age of 44. A couple of good years followed.

A funny thing started happening in 07. Slowly my distances started to drop and by midyear I had lost 50’. It was a hard thing to accept but father time was catching up and my natural strength was declining. I made a commitment, started a training program in the fall of 07 and by the spring of 08 my numbers were back, actually breaking the long standing 150 gram record.

It works.

My program??

Core is a must (REAL hard on a fat guy..lol), Chest, back, shouders, triceps and biceps. Some legs but nothing real heavy. I do have a little secret cast specific workout tool that big brother and I developed, which I use at least once a week.

Absolutely nothing takes the place of technique. The strongest guy in the gym will get out cast by a small guy on the field if the big guy has no technique. I’ve seen small guys, especially in the UK that just crush it. Look up Steve Morris or Andy Green.

My roots are in 8nbait. I’ve always looked at that as an advantage in tournament casting. Do the same principles apply. You bet. A little less rotation and a little shorter (not necessarily stiffer) rod but the same fundamentals apply.

It’s late and I’m rambling a bit here, but this is a very interesting thread.

Tommy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
495 Posts
It's all relative as well, yes you can "built up" your core without powerlifting or training but you'd make much quicker progress and generate more speed and power through training. If you do it casting you'll actually create many compensation issues in your body due the single direction nature of what you are doing.
very valid point. this is a purely hypothetical statement, but if you were to focus purely on your core, building core strength through casting alone would reak havok on your body. numerous back and spinal ailments would arise. to get the results one could acheive by a simple 2 day a week workout, you would have to spend ungodly amounts of time casting (dont we all wish we could. :D). obviously gym work isnt going to make you cast 900' but (assuming its done correctly) all it can really do is help you maintain/improve.

Absolutely nothing takes the place of technique. The strongest guy in the gym will get out cast by a small guy on the field if the big guy has no technique. I’ve seen small guys, especially in the UK that just crush it. Look up Steve Morris or Andy Green.
and this is what it all essentially boils down to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,822 Posts
a buddy of mine was reading the thread and sent me his opinion... Here it goes..

Personally i believe the ability to cast long distances may be may be as much about fear and belief rather than physical attributes,

Fear:-

I knew for years what was holding me back, the fear of breaking a $500 rod, the reels have never mattered to me, i can fix them, but the rods are a big blow if they break.

Belief:-

having the confidence to give it all every cast is a big plus, knowing your reel is tuned to your personal taste and that it will not let you down unless you fuck up is a big bonus.



Physical Attributes:-
A rugby coach once said to me "why are you working out in the gym when you cannot pass properly" get the basics right first then try to make yourself bigger and better, unless a weight program is specific in which muscles you are building it can be a disadvantage, watch a body builder carry two heavy bag of shopping and he will look unwieldy and tight in his movement, most cannot get their hands down by their sides because of over developed muscles in the wrong place for the job.

If you want to build yourself up to have a combination of power and speed the two finest things you can do are swim daily and work out on a rowing machine, the swimming gives you the suppleness (its the only thing you can do (apart from when you sneeze) that uses every muscle in your body) needed for the cast and the rowing machine will give you the explosive power, pumping 500 lbs is no good, thats for the guys in contact sports, i've never been tackled or hit while casting yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
258 Posts
Excellent comments guys and one thing that I would add in favor of good core conditioning is the need for endurance. While being away from casting and any type of work outs I found that I just didn't have the endurance to do very much at all. When I went to the next distance casting tournament I didn't think about the number of times that I would have to walk out carrying my rod to recover the sinker. By the third rotation I was exhausted. You don't have to guess what affect that had on my speed, power and technique the rest of the day.

I would strongly recommend that anyone planning an activity that requires repetition like distance casting, lure fishing or the likes do themselves a favor and begin to exercise those muscle well in advance of that activity. If not then your best cast had better be your first or second.

I still maintain a chair in the shad with a good view of the field but hope that I will not need it, so it may be available.

All the best,
LarryB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
you guys act like you can just pick up a weight and get hyooge...it aint like that for most. Body Building references are irrelevant, they are the extreme of the extreme and take total dedication, goobs of drugs in the illustrations above, 7,000-10,000 calories a day and programs that put them in the gym 12-20 hours a week.

We all know this is unrealistic. An average guy lifting heavy 2 days a week for an hour and a half with a solid program can see great improvement in his distance. This conversation centered around POWER not bulk...big difference. You can have power without bulk to a degree but in most cases power eventually results in some size, but size for an average guy we're talking adding 10lbs of muscle per year which is actually very good. Our bodies want balance and are very reluctant to build uncessary muscle and/or keep it on. It is metabolically expensive to maintain and is the first to go when we are "untrained" you need to give your body a reason to keep it or build it and heavy lifting is the hardest but most efficient way to do that. After the first 2 months you won't build muscle without proper nutrition, your body will refuse to do it...but your will continue to develop power as your nervous system becomes more efficient and accustomed to firing

You may not want bulk but being more powerful is almost never a bad thing. Think Tiger Woods, incredibly powerful but compared to others of similar power he has a slightish build, you can see his muscles because he's lean but that's really the only reason.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,822 Posts
LarryB it's good to hear from you. You are an example of a blend of both form and power. You told me to work on making everything second nature, and worry about the power later.. I've been working on that, and now I need to introduce the Animal to the cast.. LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
495 Posts
If you want to build yourself up to have a combination of power and speed the two finest things you can do are swim daily and work out on a rowing machine, the swimming gives you the suppleness (its the only thing you can do (apart from when you sneeze) that uses every muscle in your body) needed for the cast and the rowing machine will give you the explosive power, pumping 500 lbs is no good, thats for the guys in contact sports, i've never been tackled or hit while casting yet.
i have to... ehhh... not disagree but... maybe discredit some of this statement?

swimming is undoubtedly a full body workout (no contest there), but its not the only way to get one. name me any muscle on the body associated with movement (not involuntary bodily function) and i can tell ya how to work it at LEAST as a synergist. it boils down to WHAT your training for and that will determine how you train.

bleh... this is kind of a pissing contest though. there is no standard of excellence when it comes to the sport of distance casting as far as physical attributes go compared to other profesional athletes. but that might be what makes it so fun ya know? a burly 6'2" 250lber can potentially be out cast by a scrawny 5'6" guy whos 150lbs when wet. everyones body is different... and its just impossible to say until you step on the feild.

a bit random:
- seizures engage every muscle in your body to the highest extent, even more than sneezing. but i dont wish that upon anyone obviously.
- youve never played tackle casting? your missing out... :rolleyes:;):)

We all know this is unrealistic. An average guy lifting heavy 2 days a week for an hour and a half with a solid program can see great improvement in his distance. This conversation centered around POWER not bulk...big difference. You can have power without bulk to a degree but in most cases power eventually results in some size, but size for an average guy we're talking adding 10lbs of muscle per year which is actually very good. Our bodies want balance and are very reluctant to build uncessary muscle and/or keep it on. It is metabolically expensive to maintain and is the first to go when we are "untrained" you need to give your body a reason to keep it or build it and heavy lifting is the hardest but most efficient way to do that. After the first 2 months you won't build muscle without proper nutrition, your body will refuse to do it...but your will continue to develop power as your nervous system becomes more efficient and accustomed to firing
QFT

power, doesnt mean bulk. (for example; micheal phelps)
bulk doesnt mean restricted movement. (example; mark messier)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,869 Posts
interesting thread.

Good points made by all. It used to be thought that being "muscle bound" would hamper flexibility and hurt individuals in certain sports, like basketball or golf, and many coaches discouraged heavy weight lifting.


One can not work without the other, any thought that you can be your best and achieve personal best distances while concentrating solely on power or solely on technique isn't going to get you the results in the shortest time frame possible.

More golf injuries occur, simply because players hate the gym routine- and think they can "Play" their way into shape. Hitting thousand of golf balls--- or toossing cast after cast- will simply stress the body thru over utilization of certain muscles and movements-- getting in shape is the name of the game.

Likewise being super strong will do you no good without technique-- you can indeed become "muscle bound". Stretching for flexibility is as important as strength training- be it golf, casting, what have you.

Stretch after strength training to avoid tight muscles and to maintain flexibility.

So time is limited and you onlty have an hour to dedicate to training (what to do?) cast or work out ? Both !! Super long casting sessions are no good-- you lose focus and concentration and soon find yourself just going thru the motions-- NOT GOOD !!

Get your exercise where you can- take the stairs- not the elevator- to build leg muscles, -- park a little farther away when shopping, etc. You can incorporate simple routines into your daily habits that will have you "excersing" without even thinking about it, it isn't entirely necessary to spend time at the gym every day, but if you can make it 2-3 days a week, you'll find out just how much easier it is to load that rod up - don't neglect casting sessions- a little extra power combined with good technique will have you casting further, while actually expending less energy in the process.

Now excuse me while I step out for a cig and a beer :D


Last thought- as Larry pointed out-- cardio is important for endurance- maybe not that important on the first or second cast of the day- but whether fishng tournament or casting tournament- lack of endurance causes your ability to focus to go down rapidly- you not only start to get fatigued-- mentally and physically your timing and speed go out the window pretty quickly when you tire easily.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,822 Posts
You're entitled to your opinion my friend.. It's wasn't my statement it was a friends comments.. Either way it's cool
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
If you want to build yourself up to have a combination of power and speed the two finest things you can do are swim daily and work out on a rowing machine, the swimming gives you the suppleness (its the only thing you can do (apart from when you sneeze) that uses every muscle in your body) needed for the cast and the rowing machine will give you the explosive power, pumping 500 lbs is no good, thats for the guys in contact sports, i've never been tackled or hit while casting yet.
Read up a bit on how your central nervous system (CNS) fires during explosive activities. Rowing will condition those muscles but not make them more powerful in explosive activities of which a distance cast falls into.

Think of it this way:

You may only need to generate enough power to move a loaded rod (say 50lbs) to cast. However the more power you generate the faster you'll be able to move that load when the timing is correct. To the extent you can move a higher load during that motion your CNS will become more efficient at firing and therefore be able to generate more power and speed when you move down to that 50# load.

We should stop confusing training for bulk and training for power. Most big fat powerlifters these days train for speed as well, say a day of benching or lifting 200# as FAST and explosive as you can. This will develop power via speed and CNS efficiency.

When you train for power you are really conditioning your central nervous system to operate at a higher level bigger muscles are sometimes a result of that training if the conditions warrant themselves. Your body has a reserve of strength that many will never tap into unless trained up over time or in a life threatening situation. Mothers lifting cars to save kids etc. It happens every year. Your CNS is smart in that it will not put you into danger unecessarily. The average man has enough power to break his own bones through contration of his muscles, however your brain and CNS would never let that happen, it is training your CNS that allows you to tap into that reserve.

One more interesting tidbit on how the CNS drives everything. For years and years no one could break the 800# (not sure but this feels right)mark in the bench press, I'm talking guys stacked around 790-799 but no one could do it. Finally someone cracked 800, in the next year 15 guys had done it. It was an invisible wall their mind couldnt' get past but once they saw it done it was smoked. That had nothing to do with casting, just an example of how conditioning your CNS drives ability.


Bruce Lee comes to mind...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
surf cat makes a good point as well, when i'm short on gym time I'll jog to my sinkers and back.

sorry to pile on kmw, didn't realize someone was popping off while I was writing that. We both stated the same, albeit in differnet ways.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,822 Posts
No problem! LOL Like I said before i was just positng a friends comments.. At the end of the day most of us probably dont have advanced degrees in kinesiology, and only know what works for us. So I say do what works for you , and share your experiences. That we we can filter the advice you get and only keep what works for you.. Another gem (advice) i got from LarryB.. :)


surf cat makes a good point as well, when i'm short on gym time I'll jog to my sinkers and back.

sorry to pile on kmw, didn't realize someone was popping off while I was writing that. We both stated the same, albeit in differnet ways.
 
1 - 20 of 65 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top