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Yo dude,,,check out the name...Fireline20..
Now from that, what line do u think I use,,,,,:D:D

Hello,,, 60 #lb, leader, 20# Fireline :cool::cool:

You don't need a helmet unless your 100 yards off shore in a kayak.

Call me when u want a demo and u can paddle fast enough to get out of the way of my accurate spin reel cast from 100 yards:D:D:D:D

Why do people want to challenge known fact with such a challenge:--|:--|
Your name is what I was concerned about

If your throwing 20-25# line and 8oz sinkers with no Shock leader then your endangering anyone thats fishing around you.
 
Too much science for me but hey I think it confirms what I said in laymans terms:

Distance equals :Velocity of rod tip speed/velocity of end point object/ ie 8/weight
I had a dude walk up beside me in the dark out on the point using your set up.
He rared back and let it rip. The bail slapped shut and instead of the line breaking the 8oz flew back and cracked the bones in the back of my hand.
I made him crank my bait in.
It got a little ugly after that..
My vacation time, money, whole trip screwed.
 
Obviously none of you guys have ever fished Ft Fisher aka "The Fort" where I fish because I hate crowds,,, which is also why I refuse to fish from a pier or fish at the "Point".

To be honest with you the fishing might be a bit better at the Point but I cannot imagine the chaos of 200 people fishing within 10 feet of each other. That would defeat my whole purpose for surf fishing,,,the solitude.

But if you had fished "The Fort" you would know that there is no one within 200 yards of each other on any given day and most days it is a lot more than that and I believe I can get an "amen brother" from other Fort guys.:) Take note of picture on the left,,,that is a Saturday in Sept and you don't see another soul down the beach.

As to fishing with 8 oz of lead, I don't use anything over 6 oz, don't need to at the Fort because the water drops off deep real fast and most of the fish are within 100 yards of the beach and I have never broken Fireline 20# during a cast.

Like I said to each his own and this has turned into a pissing contest. Case closed as far as I am concerned.

Tight lines guys,,,enjoy your day:fishing:
 
Sorry Fireline20

I didn't mean to turn this into a pissing contest, just trying to point out to others that throwing 5-8 oz on 20# line is not a good idea.
With a soft rod and a smooth cast anything is possible, but for most of us it would be really hard to accomplish.

Good Fishing
 
Sorry Fireline20

I didn't mean to turn this into a pissing contest, just trying to point out to others that throwing 5-8 oz on 20# line is not a good idea.
With a soft rod and a smooth cast anything is possible, but for most of us it would be really hard to accomplish.

Good Fishing
Good fishing to you also...:fishing:

I guess not only is it different strokes for different folks but it all depends on where your fishing.

Thanks all for the info, and if and when I do get up to the Point again or to the Chessie, I will remember all those guide lines..as one thing I would never do is be a rude and un-safe fisherman..:)

God speed to you all in your fishing endeavors.
 
I have almost busted my own teeth out before!

What it boils down to is the drag.
Anything bigger than 2oz. I back off the drag on the cast, then tighten up when it hits.
On conventional reels or spinners.
1: It wont come back at you if you are not in free spool
2: If you backlash the line will not bite down into itself so bad.

Its all about learnin Fireline..
If the line is wrapped aroud your rod tip.. Everybody watch out.. LOL
 
What it boils down to is the drag. Anything bigger than 2oz. I back off the drag on the cast said:
Now that is a very good suggestion and I will start using that or put it in free spool, as I do when I back up the beach once by bait has hit the water. I will just do it before I cast and save myself a step.

Thanks for that tip :D
 
I have tried to get Flea to come back to the Dark side but I guess he has to much of that Yankie blood in him,,, he also likes to pound his PVC tubes into the sand too :eek:

Flea next time down I will show ya a knot (aint saying which one as to not start a fight) but I am headed south this weekend lookn for them Spoty fish :D

I have seen his cast. Which is why the Darkside does not agree with him.

Back when I used spinners on Heaviers I just used Doubled line for shock with a simple spidrerhitch. Though on my schoolie rods i use a no-name to attach 17lb Vanish to the 10-12lb running line and it works just fine. That should be good on the heavier.
 
I second what Digger is saying..
I used it 10 years and never hung a knot on the guides or lost any big creatures.

Double 20' of line with a spider.
Stick the loop thru and around the barrel on the hook.
2 less knots to worry about.
 
Has anyone else noticed that shock knots that work perfectly well on conventional cause problems on spinners? I've noticed the spider hitch/no-name combo has a tendency to hang in the first or second guide during a cast, often leading to break-offs.

It's particularly pronounced when using 20#/50# line, but it even happens with the #17/#40 sometimes.
Back to original question..

The "Albertos Knot" is as strong as a 2 knot connection when connecting lines of much different diameter.

It really shines with mono to braid, such as floro leaders and shocks on spin reels.

Its easier than it looks.

Just a no-name wrapped twice. very easy..

Anybody that likes to test knot strength, I would like to see see results of this single knot connection.

Try it Sandflea!

I know its inappropriate to send you elsewhere but.. Here' da link below..

http://www.stripersonline.com/Pages/Articles/article_arby_albertos_knot.shtml
 
My Comments

Sand Flea

I agreed with your first response and your other response to thin knot. I had the same problems when doing power casts with surf spinning rods. Once in a while, I would get the knot broken off at the first or second guide. It happens so fast that it is hard to pinpoint which guide it happens. As others said, you should not have this problem when using conventional outfit. But like you, I like to use spinning outfit. I have been doing research on trying to find the thinnest knot to use, but it has to be easy to tie, too. The knot strengths in the bible is a good place to start research. I still have not found the perfect knot.

Fireline20

:eek: I think we have failed to convince you and you have failed to do sufficient research, but the whole point for using a shockleader is to prevent the heavy sinker from breaking off during a power cast. You said that you let your rod with 5-8 oz sinker rip to 80-100 yds plus. That is not a power cast. Your rip is more like a loft :D
 
The confusion in this thread is few people differenciate between the situation of a plugger vs. that of a bait fisherman. I spent a long time investigating and experimenting with "wrap around the spool" leader junctions using spinning reels. I found that virtually all the people who stated success with this were bait fishermen. I didn't find anyone (creditable) who claimed success while plugging.

One basic reason for this is pluggers throw many more casts per fishing session than bait fishermen. If a tangle/break off occurs once in twenty casts the plugger will be frustrated on every outing and the bait fisherman might only occur this once out of every several outings. Additionally, pluggers typically throw with higher INITAL line velocities. Why is this? Pluggers usually throw @ three-ounces and lighter. They can (and need to) generate higher initial line speeds with these weights (but their plugs decelerate more rapidly). As the weights thrown become heavier (bait fishing), the initial line speeds tend to drop off but the carried inertia of the heavier weights become a positive factor in casting distance. As Sgt. Slough said in reply #20, the higher the initial line speed the higher the problem rate.

The real problem with wrap around the spool line connections is the abrupt transition in the flex (limpness/stiffness) of the two lines. Instead of a smoothly flowing coil of line, the abrupt change in line flex causes a kind of "square corner" in the line flow. When this hits a guide (esp. in particular guide set ups) bad things happen. It makes sense that mono to mono combinations cause less problems than very limp braid to very stiff heavy fluoro. The least amount of line flex change occurs between braid to braid combinations.

The knot itself is a problem for spinning reels. It's not necessarily the tag ends or the smoothness of knot. Remember, the line is peeling off the spinning reel spool SIDEWAYS. Any "bump" has potential to be caught by the outflowing line causing it to be prematurely pulled off the spool (what a mess!). The only effective way to combat this is to take the time to wind the knot at the bottom of the spool. Bait fishermen can do this but pluggers can't deal with this when making so many casts.

If you are a spinning plugger I doubt you will have success with wrap around the spool leaders. Use braid running line heavy enough to be safe with your casting weights and use a short "bite leader" that does not get reeled inside the guides. If you are a spinning bait fisherman you might have success with wrap around the spool leaders if you pay attention to the nuances of it all. - HPD
 
Too much science for me but hey I think it confirms what I said in laymans terms:

Distance equals :Velocity of rod tip speed/velocity of end point object/ ie 8/weight
If that's all you took from what I wrote then I really don't know what to say . . . Nobody is disputing what factors create distance, the discussion is how those forces (at high, if not extreme levels) cause components to perform and react with other components.

I donated about a dozen rigs last year after trying a bunch of different knot combinations.
It's not the knot . . .

What it boils down to is the drag.
Anything bigger than 2oz. I back off the drag on the cast, then tighten up when it hits.
Are you saying you do this with spinning tackle? I understand doing it with conventionals but how do you generate any energy when you have the drag loose?

Plus, no one has explained to me why you would reel your shock leader onto the spool in the first place.:cool:
In the simplest terms, if you are not reeling the heavier line onto the reel then it is not a "shock" (or casting) leader. Calling it a "shock leader" is just wrong. The comments here only reflect the mistake you are making in the name. Feel free to call it a bite leader, chafe leader, landing leader or "Fort" leader . . . Just don't call it a shock leader.

I think Sgt Slough is right on in his assessment, if you want to use spinning (nothing wrong with that) consider having a rod set up properly with low rider guides. The right tool for the right job, as they say.
The rod doesn't have to be rung with lowriders; lowriders are pretty much for braid running / braid casting leader set-ups (although I have used this rod in casting tournaments (.28/.75 mono) for the 100gm and 125gm and done 625+ with it). I think guide size is secondary in eliminating guide loops; the most important factor is distance from the reel to the first (collector) guide. The sizes of the guides is next and that is partly determined by the first factor and then by the reel itself (foot angle and how aggressively is dispenses line).

Agian, the line coming off the reel is like a waveform but the amplitude, the height of the "waves" in the line is ever decreasing the further from the reel it gets because the sinker is pulling on the line, straightening it.



It makes no sense to have guides bigger than the the line coils are at the point the guide is located. A 50mm guide 40 inches from the reel is just an expensive, useless adornment if, at 40 inches from the reel the line coils only measure 35mm. Put a 30mm guide 40mm from the reel and you are actually doing something to control the line (and help rod recovery by lessening tip weighting).

Even with no guides the line coming off a spinner will become straight at some point; collector placement and size is important to help this process without causing a problem.

it's those heavy coils of mono banging into the guides that takes the steam off the speed of the flying lead. The best bet might be a braid to heavier braid connection for the "shock" leader, and then a shorter section of heavy mono (5-7') that stays ouside the guides for handling fish.
Absitively Posolutely!!!

Mono shockleaders do create their own problems. I equate a mono shocker as trying to throw a slinky through a basketball hoop without it catching the ring.

Believing a heavy mono shocker corkscrewing itself through the guides towing a wispy braid running line behind it is NOT going to cause problems is like believing in unicorns and mermaids.

On my distance set-ups I use 20lb (1507) and 30lb (1569) Sufix braid as my running line and 65lb and 80 lb braid for casting leaders. The main strand of my rig is of course constructed of 80lb to 130lb mono and is usually 3 to 5 feet long. That is plenty of line to handle a fish from the beach; for wading a bar I would make it a bit longer.

IMNSHO a mono shocker on spinners with braid running line is without any redeeming performance qualities -- but that's a discussion for another thread.
 
Ok guys, I am new to the site. I live in California and have never surf fished. I joined a short while ago. I haunt this place because its an excellent source of information for distance casting which I need in order to cast a 1 1/2 oz Sadine as far as possible off a charter boat with 25 other anglers on board, a 500 gallon bait tank and a wheel house to contend with. That task may seem simple but it has some unique problems.

Anyway, on this knot discussion...... I tend to look at things from an engineering standpoint. Agreed with the comments about there not being a smooth transition between the shock leader and the spectra causing the knot to get caught on the guide and separating. I had a similar problem casting the Sardine though not as catistrophoic as the problem presented. What I did was switch to a Bob Sands knot. The way its tied causes the build up of the Spectra to form a tapered lead in to the mono knot. I have supplied a link below to its construction. Looking at the pictures you will be able to see what I am talking about.

http://bobsandsfishingtackle.awardspace.com/bobsandsknot.html

The knot is very strong as is but not being able to leave well enough alone I made some modifications. One major change I made was to tie a Bimini Twist in the Spectra and then proceed to treat the looped section as a single line and tie the knot as instructed. The Bimini increased the breaking point of the knot and caused a thicker lead in build up tapering down to the knotted part of the mono.

Will this solve the problem ??? Not haveing surf fishing expierence I do not know , but from an engineering stand point it may be worth a try.

Thanks to everyone who contributes to this site, the information gained on this site I have applied to my problems and has helped me a lot. It is much appreciated.

Walt
Walnut, California
 
To final point here.

To Green Cart who said:

Fireline20

I think we have failed to convince you and you have failed to do sufficient research, but the whole point for using a shockleader is to prevent the heavy sinker from breaking off during a power cast. You said that you let your rod with 5-8 oz sinker rip to 80-100 yds plus. That is not a power cast. Your rip is more like a loft.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am not going to get into a macho pissing contest on the subject who casts the furtherest or what a ripping a cast meand. If you read my other posts you would see that I don't need to cast any further to reach the fish at the Fort. Sorry you seem to deem the test of manhood is how far you can heave an 8 oz weight.:D:D I don't heave 8 oz weights, don't need to and don't intend on doing so.

Besides I did not post this in the Distance Casting forum

Sgt Slough said:

In the simplest terms, if you are not reeling the heavier line onto the reel then it is not a "shock" (or casting) leader. Calling it a "shock leader" is just wrong. The comments here only reflect the mistake you are making in the name. Feel free to call it a bite leader, chafe leader, landing leader or "Fort" leader . . . Just don't call it a shock leader.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree totally with that and it is effect a bite leader, chafe leader, landing leader or "Fort" leader, or perhaps the term "stretch leader" would be more appropriate as it will stretch when fighting a big fish that pure braid or Fireline do not do.

Thanks for that clarification as it is a justifiable rebuke:redface:
 
Fireline20

There used to be a good drum hole way down the beach from Fort Fisher, on a 10-20 Ne blow and a long cast with 8 and bait . I use to catch 45-49" drum, was just wondering if that hole was still there. If ya get down that way could you let me know.
 
Fireline20

There used to be a good drum hole way down the beach from Fort Fisher, on a 10-20 Ne blow and a long cast with 8 and bait . I use to catch 45-49" drum, was just wondering if that hole was still there. If ya get down that way could you let me know.
You are probably talking about the "Inlet" that does not exist anymore after a hurricane,,,Firespyder and other can sing the praises of that honey hole but that was before my time....butttt, if you know where it used to be,,,it is a very good place to fish...:D:D:D
 
Sand flee

back to your original ?
If you use a mono shock leader, guides have a lot to do with how that knot behaves and it does behave different depending on whether you use mono or braid running line.

For a good combination rod:

Guides like the Fuji Alconites BMNAG starting with a 30, Turned backwards and placed out like Sgt Slough suggested then the rest of the BMNAG guides ( 25, 20, 16,16,16 or 16, 12,12 ect ) mounted regular, either cone of flight or Consept style will go a long way toward stopping your problem
 
If that's all you took from what I wrote then I really don't know what to say . . . Nobody is disputing what factors create distance, the discussion is how those forces (at high, if not extreme levels) cause components to perform and react with other components.



It's not the knot . . .



Are you saying you do this with spinning tackle? I understand doing it with conventionals but how do you generate any energy when you have the drag loose?



In the simplest terms, if you are not reeling the heavier line onto the reel then it is not a "shock" (or casting) leader. Calling it a "shock leader" is just wrong. The comments here only reflect the mistake you are making in the name. Feel free to call it a bite leader, chafe leader, landing leader or "Fort" leader . . . Just don't call it a shock leader.



The rod doesn't have to be rung with lowriders; lowriders are pretty much for braid running / braid casting leader set-ups (although I have used this rod in casting tournaments (.28/.75 mono) for the 100gm and 125gm and done 625+ with it). I think guide size is secondary in eliminating guide loops; the most important factor is distance from the reel to the first (collector) guide. The sizes of the guides is next and that is partly determined by the first factor and then by the reel itself (foot angle and how aggressively is dispenses line).

Agian, the line coming off the reel is like a waveform but the amplitude, the height of the "waves" in the line is ever decreasing the further from the reel it gets because the sinker is pulling on the line, straightening it.



It makes no sense to have guides bigger than the the line coils are at the point the guide is located. A 50mm guide 40 inches from the reel is just an expensive, useless adornment if, at 40 inches from the reel the line coils only measure 35mm. Put a 30mm guide 40mm from the reel and you are actually doing something to control the line (and help rod recovery by lessening tip weighting).

Even with no guides the line coming off a spinner will become straight at some point; collector placement and size is important to help this process without causing a problem.



Absitively Posolutely!!!

Mono shockleaders do create their own problems. I equate a mono shocker as trying to throw a slinky through a basketball hoop without it catching the ring.

Believing a heavy mono shocker corkscrewing itself through the guides towing a wispy braid running line behind it is NOT going to cause problems is like believing in unicorns and mermaids.

On my distance set-ups I use 20lb (1507) and 30lb (1569) Sufix braid as my running line and 65lb and 80 lb braid for casting leaders. The main strand of my rig is of course constructed of 80lb to 130lb mono and is usually 3 to 5 feet long. That is plenty of line to handle a fish from the beach; for wading a bar I would make it a bit longer.

IMNSHO a mono shocker on spinners with braid running line is without any redeeming performance qualities -- but that's a discussion for another thread.
first let me say I will not use braid on a heaver. nor do I believe you need 10 to every oz of weight you throw. if you throw smooth and do not "snap cast" you should be able to recover from a hang up or a bail flip. I use 2 wraps on the reel and a slim beauty knot. works for me and has up to 10oz. use a hatteras cast or off the beach for big baits and very seldom break off.
 
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