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  1. #76
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    It's the law. If you don't like it then get a majority and repeal it. Not sure why some people are having such a difficult time comprehending that. Flea, I hope your friend gets well.

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talapia View Post
    It's the law. If you don't like it then get a majority and repeal it. Not sure why some people are having such a difficult time comprehending that. Flea, I hope your friend gets well.
    Yep and it starts in November. With the approval rating on a steady drop that may just happen. By that time a lot of us may be off "The Grid" and not worry about it. The biggest mistake this country has ever made. We the people did it, we the people can un-did it.....Just wait till the Obamaphones and Obomabucks run out. That's when the chit will hit the fan....

  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMike View Post
    Yep and it starts in November. With the approval rating on a steady drop that may just happen. By that time a lot of us may be off "The Grid" and not worry about it. The biggest mistake this country has ever made. We the people did it, we the people can un-did it.....Just wait till the Obamaphones and Obomabucks run out. That's when the chit will hit the fan....
    Well a poll released just yesterday and reported in the House Chamber, "Dog poop had a 45% favorable rating to House of Representatives at 40%" That was probably a poll taken of the House members by the way.

    And as you mentioned Mike, it all changes in November, when Nancy Pelosi becomes the Speaker of the House yet again, because the Republican held House can't find a speaker with the balls to stand up to 30-35 ultra right wing zealots who would rather burn the proverbial "house" down than put water on the fire. I would be surprised if you ever see another Republican held House and Senate in your life time. I'm still willing to help you find some comfy place outside of the U.S. to move to if you want the help! No Charge for you!

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  6. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitdog2 View Post
    It's not a "single carrier plan" yet, but it will be and the government will be the "single carrier". That is the purpose when the gov. controls your health care, they also control you and everything in your life.
    And We Have A Winner !

  7. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by solid7 View Post
    You were a convenient example. Besides, I love it when the moderators laugh, while they're sitting back doing nothing... I was just having a conversation with Shooter and Bubba the other day about what we could do to single out LRJ, and get away with stuff that he can't, cause we're in the best good friends club...
    For the record, you should put something there to indicate that you are kidding. No such conversation took place between the two of us, and (even if you're trying to get a rise out of someone) people who visit the board do not need to think that the mods are conspiring to single out users. That's pretty uncool, actually. I don't know how I got dragged into this at all.

    I don't agree with LRJ's conclusions a lot of the time, and he knows this, but I think there's a certain element of truth to this "The sky is falling" mentality among many folks. That's how I interpreted the "paranoia" business.
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  9. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMike View Post
    Maybe so but I have looked at the marketplace and my premium is a bit lower but the deductible is much higher as well as the copay's. The first year the gov. marketplace is only going to offer 1 choice which is not nearly as good as I have now.
    This is right, based on what I've seen. About a year ago, I started looking for mom and dad a medicare supp on ehealthinsurance.com just to get an idea of what their premium might be (because Kodak declared bankruptcy and cut his retirement benefits). I took a look at what it would cost my wife and me (just out of curiosity). After she got sick and I found out how much our insurance was going up and heard about how pre-existing conditions would be dropped, I went back and checked. The premium was about the same, BUT BUT BUT not only was the deductible much higher, but the out-of-pocket annual max was MUCH HIGHER. Mike, you might want to check that as well.

    I do not call a $10,000 per person out-of-pocket max "affordable" at all. To me, that is a misnomer.
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  11. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BubbaHoTep View Post
    For the record, you should put something there to indicate that you are kidding. No such conversation took place between the two of us, and (even if you're trying to get a rise out of someone) people who visit the board do not need to think that the mods are conspiring to single out users. That's pretty uncool, actually. I don't know how I got dragged into this at all.
    You are right, it was pretty uncool - and that was the point. It was in reference to one of the dumbest comments I've heard around here in a very long time. Figured you knew I was kidding, since you musta had some part in putting the kebosh on it.

    Conversations like this always go bad. Sometimes people are just too proud of their own points of view. Figured I'd have some fun before you put the lid on it. Oh well. I tried.

    Hope this doesn't mean I can't still go drinking with you this weekend.

  12. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by BubbaHoTep View Post
    I do not call a $10,000 per person out-of-pocket max "affordable" at all. To me, that is a misnomer.
    You are absolutely right.

    What I constantly wrestle with, is how overused health care can be in this country. Now, before anybody slags me, let me just say, that I grew up in a doctor's office. My father's wife worked in a clinic. Heck, I almost became a doctor, myself. So I know what is said, what is done, how relationships with doctors and pharma work, etc, etc. And I just can't believe how many people go to the doctor for every little thing. And quite honestly, I wonder how this figures into the health care equation. If everyone is now required to be insured, surely the ensuing mentality will be that of car insurance - "I pay for it, I'm going to use it".

    Don't get me wrong - we all know somebody who ABSOLUTELY needs healthcare, and/or treatment. But how does our cultural dependence on meds and "being seen" affect the system which we are now paying into? Will these things cause our figures to go higher later? I mean, I think legally, a person with a serious illness should never be allowed to be turned away. But I also think that some things have no place in a doctor's office, and I'm deathly afraid that those things - like frivolous lawsuits to our judical system - will now clog our medical infrastructure, making it harder for people who actually need treatment. In other words, I'm insinuating that we may be getting worse for making ourselves better.

  13. #86
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    OK I will take the credit for chopping half of the past threads,,, yup it was me,,,, I did it,,, Ohhh Meee Ohhh Meee I am the mad chopper,,,

    I love a good disagreement, debate or right down exchange of words and as long as it doesn't get personal have at it till the cows come home, but everyone knows the second YOU make it personal it will get chopped and if the Mods get tired of it YOU will find yourself sitting in the dark wearing the pointy hat.

    Did ya notice I used the word "YOU" if you took it personal then that person was YOU and I was speaking to YOU so please take it personal.

    So now if you think we or I was picking on any one please feel free to privately let us or I know you got your feelings hurt and you are the only one that was being pointed out and everyone else got away with something. Just remember the Mods got in whole new boxes of pointy hats to pass out.

    Now everyone may resume having their disagreement on current affairs.

  14. #87
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    The only question I have is, and as a teacher A.J., maybe you can shed some light on this for me, but is "douche-baggery" as it was used and adjective?

  15. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil red jeep View Post
    The only question I have is, and as a teacher A.J., maybe you can shed some light on this for me, but is "douche-baggery" as it was used and adjective?
    I'm going to say noun on that one, and change "baggery" to "baggish" to make it an adjective. We'd better not make it "baggins," else we drag Frodo and Bilbo into this. HAHAHA
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  16. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMike View Post
    Yep and it starts in November. With the approval rating on a steady drop that may just happen. By that time a lot of us may be off "The Grid" and not worry about it. The biggest mistake this country has ever made. We the people did it, we the people can un-did it.....Just wait till the Obamaphones and Obomabucks run out. That's when the chit will hit the fan....
    Too funny. Please feel free to go off "the Grid" now. I mean why wait?

  17. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talapia View Post
    Too funny. Please feel free to go off "the Grid" now. I mean why wait?
    Yep that's what many want to see. If people like me stop what we do then there will be no one to hold up the Obomaperks for the worthless byproduct of our society.

  18. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMike View Post
    Yep that's what many want to see. If people like me stop what we do then there will be no one to hold up the Obomaperks for the worthless byproduct of our society.

    Come on now, make a decision and be firm about it. I for one applaud your vocal stand. Just makes the coming elections that much easier.

  19. #92
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    Not gonna be anything easy about it. I think there's gonna be a huge shakeup. One thing for sure, can't get any worse...

  20. #93
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    We could have Joe biden for president

  21. #94
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    Oh yes it can. Wait till the single men with no dependants start recieving benefits. And then watch all benefits get cut off. Then the show will really start.

  22. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC KingFisher View Post
    Well I found out today at work they have officially cut wics and ebt
    That Vos has some serious problems...wth

    http://www.wral.com/state-to-resume-...iday/12983538/

  23. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by solid7 View Post
    You are absolutely right.

    What I constantly wrestle with, is how overused health care can be in this country. Now, before anybody slags me, let me just say, that I grew up in a doctor's office. My father's wife worked in a clinic. Heck, I almost became a doctor, myself. So I know what is said, what is done, how relationships with doctors and pharma work, etc, etc. And I just can't believe how many people go to the doctor for every little thing. And quite honestly, I wonder how this figures into the health care equation. If everyone is now required to be insured, surely the ensuing mentality will be that of car insurance - "I pay for it, I'm going to use it".

    Don't get me wrong - we all know somebody who ABSOLUTELY needs healthcare, and/or treatment. But how does our cultural dependence on meds and "being seen" affect the system which we are now paying into? Will these things cause our figures to go higher later? I mean, I think legally, a person with a serious illness should never be allowed to be turned away. But I also think that some things have no place in a doctor's office, and I'm deathly afraid that those things - like frivolous lawsuits to our judical system - will now clog our medical infrastructure, making it harder for people who actually need treatment. In other words, I'm insinuating that we may be getting worse for making ourselves better.
    In my opinion this is what co-pays and yearly out of pocket maximums are for. Of course if it's "free" then you're probably right in that it will be abused.

    I guess I'm lucky in that I work for a large corporation and I have the choice of some decent health insurance (that hopefully won't go away like some other large corporations have done and told their employees that they can now use obama-care being that it's available now) choices of which the one I've chosen works well for me.

    Not only is the out of pocket max yearly amount "low" ($3000.00 per person/family) but they have a healthcare reimbursement incentive that you can "earn" by making heathly life choices and talking to their healh coaches to make sure you do. That "earns" you up to $800.00 per year that is spent on any health care prior to me spending my $$. It also rolls over to the next year if you don't use it all. These are some of the "changes" that need to be made along with many others.

    As I've said before if you haven't read it, look into Ben Carsons "America the Beautiful" it's a decent read with many good ideas on health care.

  24. #97
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    jay b - the real problem with health care, is that we don't have the infrastructure to handle the influx of people suddenly insured, and demanding to use their benefits.

    Sounds like a really nasty thing to say. But we've not found a way to strike the right balance between those who need life saving care, and those who want to get felt up by an MD on a bi-weekly basis.

    In fact, one of (in my opinion) the best arguments for not socializing or mandating healthcare, is that it will create this 'boom' economy of health care seekers, which will put demand on doctors, which will lead to "doctor mills" cranking out MD's, just to satisfy the situation. It's bad enough that not all people who are "professionals" are good at what they do. Now, go ahead and lower the bar.

    I work in the engineering field. Everyone is always in awe of how "advanced" Asian countries are, by virtue of their education system(s). They constantly score higher in math and science, and have these astronomical rates of graduates in those fields. But, what they don't tell you, is just how bad some of those engineers really are. I have spent months of my life baby-sitting Indian and Chinese engineers, checking and correcting their work, red-lining and bawling them out, until finally, in many cases, doing the work myself, and handing it back to them to make some token strokes, so that they may call it their own. Yep, they're highly educated. But yet, they have a hard time thinking, being creative, or doing anything, except working like ants in a colony. I have spent hours babysitting "brilliant" Chinese engineers, making sure that they don't steal proprietary data. Such intelligent people could surely use their educations to lay the foundations of their own technological infrastructure.

    So what does that have to do with healthcare? Well, now that everyone is covered, you're going to need a whole lot more doctors. You can't turn people away. You don't need a brilliant specialist for all the petty aches and pains that will draw people in. We already have issues with over-prescription of antibiotics, which is probably not helping our healthcare system, either. Is that going to get better? You tell me...

    I think, that while providing health care is a noble idea, we have, in our haste to push it, failed to find proper balance. I think this issue was made the poster child of political expediency. It's an important matter, and it doesn't deserve the treatment that it's received. Shame on both parties for that...

  25. #98
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    I don't understand what you mean by not having the "infrastructure" needed. What I do understand is your point on other countries pushing out highly educated professionals without real world experience or critical thinking skills as you have experienced in your own line of work. There is no shortage of medical schools here in the U.S. who are licking their chops for the increased demand for M.D.s in the future. Bureau of Labor and Statistics states an increase of 33% by 2020 just for M.D's. That's not including R.N's, P.A.'s, and others in the field. I have no idea what the reputations are for the medical schools in other countries, but I am familiar with the reputations of many of those here, and I can't see them risking their reputations to pump out substandard Docs. As for hospitals, I know several architects who would love nothing better than to be involved in the design of more of them, and what construction company would say no to the money they would make building them? This is free enterprise at it's best. A demand that is growing and the desire and ability to fill the demand.

    Is health care screwed up, absolutely. The prices paid by hospitals to Drs is outrageous. A pimple on someones butt could fetch 30k. The insurance companies make arrangements with hospitals way in advance as to what they will pay for a procedure. As the rates keep going up that Drs and hospitals charge for services, our insurance prices will only go up. What we have to fear is when the Govt. begins regulating how much a Doctor gets paid! That's when they decide to find another line of work and we begin seeing substandard physicians. That would be a terrible thing to face. That's the whole "one carrier" idea and when this law was being drawn up, the President made it clear that was not what he was striving for.

    When states turned down the increase in Medicare and the opportunity to open exchanges in their own state, they accepted the Govt.s one carrier system that is in place for the first year. For those states who accepted the opportunity and ran with it, they have a multitude of companies to choose from. The picture below shows the 26 Republican held states and the percentages of poor persons in need of insurance. It is not nearly the same as those states with Democratic Governors. Sadly, it looks like, and I'm not saying it is this way, but it looks like across the board, Republican Governors care less and less about their constituents. When all they had to do was accept the federal money and open a insurance exchange, it seems like those most in need get the short end of the stick!

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  26. #99
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    7, I'd have to agree with everything you've said and add to it that they couldn't even get the computer software "system" right and most folks can't even get on line to try and apply.

    It was pushed through after two wasted years of effort, while ignoring everything else, by our "wonderfull" president only because he was smart enough to realize that if he didn't do it soon and then that he would lose the democratic majorities in both houses which is the only way it passed. Not a single Republican vote, not the way a major piece of legislation should be passed ...

  27. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by lil red jeep View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by not having the "infrastructure" needed.
    The timeline is all wrong. Not enough doctors and staff at the moment the law takes effect! I'm curious to see what happens when the gates swing open on the new law.

    Maybe we can branch out, and educate people to be "physician techs" or something to the effect, which perform a lesser role. But it takes a minimum of 3 years to get somebody educated to point of being able to staff a clinic. You might have tons of schools waiting to educate these people, but then you have to consider what happens to the wages when the demand increases. (i.e., my Asian engineer example) I don't think we'll have the numbers, and if we do, will we have the quality? Did your healthcare just improve?

    Is healthcare the kind of thing that you accept such drastic compromises with? Mind you, this isn't consumer products going to market that we're talking about, here. This is about people's lives and wellness.


    Quote Originally Posted by lil red jeep View Post
    I have no idea what the reputations are for the medical schools in other countries, but I am familiar with the reputations of many of those here, and I can't see them risking their reputations to pump out substandard Docs.
    Sorry, but as your liberal beliefs should have you to know, reputations take a sideline to $$$. Enter the "brave new world". Personally, I don't think doctors are going to be worth the cost of printing their degree, in the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by lil red jeep View Post
    What we have to fear is when the Govt. begins regulating how much a Doctor gets paid! That's when they decide to find another line of work and we begin seeing substandard physicians.
    Well, there you go. I really didn't want to drag that in, but that's realistically, what will probably happen. I'm not one of those people who rages about this being "socialized" medicine, but it does have parallels, and that is definitely one of the hallmarks. It's one of the reasons why so many doctors from places like Canada and South America have flocked to the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by lil red jeep View Post
    The picture below shows the 26 Republican held states and the percentages of poor persons in need of insurance. It is not nearly the same as those states with Democratic Governors. Sadly, it looks like, and I'm not saying it is this way, but it looks like across the board, Republican Governors care less and less about their constituents. When all they had to do was accept the federal money and open a insurance exchange, it seems like those most in need get the short end of the stick!
    It's just the typical cultural divide. I don't think any of this has to do with "caring" or not caring. Neither Democrats or Republicans are smart enough to know how to strike a balance. They're all too busy playing politics for personal gain. And they go where they are most likely to succeed, or gain the most political capital for doing so. (Hilary Clinton becoming a NY senator, for example) These governors are reflecting the values of the people who voted them in, for the most part. Most of them would pay the ultimate political price for not doing so. So put the blame where it belongs...

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